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Kitty Bear
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Posted - 2012.09.18 19:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
So the Cerberus .. is now worth flying even less than it was before.
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Kitty Bear
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Posted - 2012.09.18 20:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mourning Souls wrote:Tengus and Drakes are the reason for the nerf right? Given how other missile ships look sad in comparison I'm gonna say yes.
Why not affect the ships directly?
Drop the damage bonus on Drakes from 5 to 2-3% and remove the resist bonus.
As far as Tengus go I'm not sure what to say other than nerf everything. T3's are supposed to be a jack of all trades, but they shouldn't be that good at them.
It's just
- Accelerated Ejection Bay
- Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
that makes a Tengu overpowered ..
If the Tengu itself was the problem then
- Power Core Multiplier
- Magnetic Infusion Basin
would be equally overpowered AND popular aswell.
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Kitty Bear
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote:
You can't have your cake and eat it. There will ALWAYS be trade-offs, now missile boats will have to deal with having to make a choice, too.
EDIT: I just read the drone DPS bit. Aside from the fact that you can't even control drones past 59 kilometers, they won't even be applying any sensible amount of damage since they'd be spending 90% of their uptime trying to reach a target instead.
The cerberus has a max effective weapon range of 170ish km
The cerberus has a max targeting range of 100ish km
As a Long Range sniper, if CANNOT apply webifier affects, or warp disruption affects
To get its maximum range it requires either a local Sensor Booster sacrificing a tanking/AB slot, or a remote boost sacrificing another dps ship in fleet
re:Drone Control Range
Base range -- +20km
Scout Drone Op -- +25km
ECM drone op -- +21km
Drone Link II -- +24km each (normaly 1, occasionally 2)
66km without links
90km with 1 link
114km with 2 links
as targets are usually grouped in clumps, applying that dps isnt really much of an issue after the initial travel delay.
infact drones have a lot in common with missiles
Travel time to target
Can be shot at en route
Can be smart bombed
So yeah ok, go ahead and nerf my 400dps Cerberus to oblivion.
Dont come crying to me, when your 800dps Ishtar is crippled back into the stoneage. |
Kitty Bear
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Posted - 2012.09.19 15:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aliventi wrote:
For those of us used to comparing these damage types, can you give us the numbers you are working with to prove that Heavy Missiles deserve the 20% nerf to be balanced?
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:
250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5
Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8
720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24
Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.
Tech 2 guns loaded with only 1 type of Tech 2 ammo
compared to
Tech 2 launcher loaded with FACTION ammo
cherry picked data for desired outcome ?? |
Kitty Bear
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
real numbers .. with non-cherry picked data
using raw data only (this means unskilled, un bonused)
Quote:
250mm Railgun II + Spike M
DPS: 9
Volley: 52
Optimal: 52km
Fall-Off: 12km
250mm Railgun II + Javelin M
DPS: 14
Volley: 92
Optimal: 7.2km
Fall-Off: 12km
Heavy beam Laser II + Aurora M
DPS: 10
Volley: 58
Optimal: 43km
Fall-Off: 8km
Heavy beam Laser II Gleam M
DPS: 17
Volley: 101
Optimal: 6km
Fall-Off: 8km
720mm Howitzer Artillary II + Quake M
DPS: 8
Volley: 153
Optimal: 43km
Fall-Off: 18km
720mm Howitzer Artillary II + Tremor M
DPS: 13
Volley: 268
Optimal: 6km
Fall-Off: 18km
Heavy Missile Launcher II + (x) Fury Missile
DPS: 16
Volley: 192
Optimal: 33.8km
Heavy Missile Launcher II + (x) Precision Missile
DPS: 11
Volley: 130
Optimal: 18.8km
The only glaring issue I see is that the DPS/Volley data on Fury/Precision needs reversing, or the Max Range (either works), everything else is just fine at this point.
eg
Quote:
Change to:
Heavy Missile Launcher II + (x) Fury Missile
DPS: 11
Volley: 130
Optimal: 33.8km
Change to:
Heavy Missile Launcher II + (x) Precision Missile
DPS: 16
Volley: 192
Optimal: 18.8km
All the imbalance comes from 1 of 2 areas, and in some cases both of these.
Unbalanced Ship/Module/Subsystem Modifiers
Skill Bonus Modifiers |
Kitty Bear
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:real numbers .. with non-cherry picked data
using raw data only (this means unskilled, un bonused)
You can't use unskilled data because there are a different number of support skills for each weapon platform. -Liang
These are numbers at the BASE of the pyramid.. they are foundations that the game bases everything off. So i can use them, because the game does.
The support skills are what start to skew the data
The Ship Modifiers skew it even futher
These numbers are at the TOP of the pyramid (that you see in the fitting screen).
Infact using raw data this way shows CCP did infact mess up with missile data, and its easily fixable.
Heavy Missile Launcher II + (x) Fury Missile
DPS: 16
Volley: 192
Optimal: 18.8km
Heavy Missile Launcher II + (x) Precision Missile
DPS: 11
Volley: 130
Optimal: 33.8km
That instantly puts HML's inline with other medium weapon platforms ... fixed and not nerfed .... is much better outcome. |
Kitty Bear
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I misinterpreted his point, but I still maintain that the platforms should be looked at a lot more closely, rather than blaming a problem specific to two platforms on an entire weapons system.
The platforms which use the weapons system cannot really be properly balanced until the weapon system itself is properly balanced. And that's really the crux of the issue - because I don't think anyone in their right mind can reasonably claim that HML are not OP as ******* hell. -Liang
Wrong.
Both on your interpretation of what i have typed, and on what it is I am saying.
And also because part of what i'm trying to get accross was merely implied, because i thought (foolishly) that it would be read by intelligent, literate people, who would see where I was going .... my bad  .
The raw unskilled data has an ERROR in it, and looking at that data has highlighted it.
The error is specifically in the data for heavy missiles ...... in that they are not balanced at a BASIC level in line with other medium weapons.
When the game takes that erroneous data and then modifies it by your skills, and your then by Ship Modifiers, and your finally by your fitting modifiers it has compounded that initial error several times, by multiple factors.
Fix the basic error, then look at what needs to be changed in Module/Ship Modifiers, and skill bonus modifiers, if at all by that point.
See where I was going now .......
I AM saying heavy missiles are broken .... but for a totally different reason to you.
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